Polyamorous and Asian with @polyamorouswhileasian
Michelle Hy's polyamory advocacy work (@polyamorouswhileasian) on the political intersection between relationships and race, sex positivity, and body neutrality is well known to many. In this episode we discuss:
- Michelle's very sudden introduction to polyamory at 18 years old
- Misconceptions in mainstream polyamorous narratives
- Handling boundaries and expectations with Asian parents
- Why my mother is less accepting of my bisexuality than my cousin's lesbianism
- Handling fetishisation of Asianness in dating, and where we draw the line between attraction and exoticisation
and much more.
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transcribed by Michelle Hy
Leanne: Welcome to Happy Polydays, a series of intimate conversations about polyamory, sexuality, identity, and relationships, hosted by me – Leanne Yau of the Poly Philia blog.
Leanne: Hello and welcome to day 11 of the Happy Polydays series. I am back after a brief absence yesterday. I was a bit ill, but never mind that. (laughs) Today I am joined by Michelle who runs the account @polyamorouswhileasian and we're going to be talking about being polyamorous and Asian. (laughs) So Michelle - tell us more about yourself and what you do on your page.
Michelle: Thanks! Thanks for having me on, good to chat with you again from across the Pacific Ocean. Yeah, my name is Michelle Hy. I’m in Portland, Oregon and I started the page Polyamorous While Asian almost two years ago right now, which is sad to think about, because it was when lockdown started. But, the reason why I started the page was because I was trying to look for more representation within polyamory in general, and then I realized I was having a hard time finding a lot of other Asians and it's like, well, I know I’m polyamorous and Asian. I know they're out there. And at that point, I'd been polyamorous for about eight or nine years and I was like, “Well, I feel I have a lot of experience and I think I'm probably able to articulate that in a helpful way.” If anything, this will just be like a finsta or something, where I can just blurt out random opinions and whatnot. But then I guess it resonated with people and so here I am now. (laughs)
Leanne: I love your work so much. Because you don't just talk about the polyamorous and Asian experience, but also just generally your thoughts on coming out to family. The polyamorous affirmations post that you made a while back, that was a really nice one. And I particularly love the aesthetic of your page because, as you know, my page is a mess and has no aesthetic and so I always really admire people who are able to keep something consistent.
Michelle: You’re so prolific, like holy shit - especially, you're a multi-platform queen as well. (laughs) So prolific. All this stuff, and I know you're in school as well, and I'm just like, damn.
Leanne: Yeah, well not anymore. I finished my degree in October. So basically just doing this full time now - thank you.
Michelle: Right! Yes, congratulations.
Leanne: Thank you. Yeah, no, my parents are very disappointed that I basically just put my law degree and what I was gonna do with it on the back burner because of this whole thing. But we can talk about Asian parents later on in this call.
Michelle: Oh yeah. Yep.
Leanne: You and I actually - for those of you who don't know, me and Michelle actually did a Live ages and ages ago. Well, it feels like ages ago now, where we talked about orgies and sex parties and that kind of thing. We're both very much into that and so yeah, very very excited to get into that as well because…the whole stereotype about Asian women being really submissive and demure. Like, we're very much not that? I think we take charge.
Michelle: Yeah, well I don't know how much I take charge. I still definitely am more of a passive type person -
Leanne: You know what you want.
Michelle: - but very much a slut for sure.
(3:35 min)
(Laughter)
Leanne: For sure, for sure. I guess my first question for you, Michelle, is your polyamory origin story. How did you come across polyamory, get into it? And in particular, are you one of those people where non-monogamy felt natural to you, or did you struggle with it a bit more at the start?
Michelle: People who have been around for a while will know my origin story but basically, I guess I can take it back to when my parents divorced when I was about six or seven. And I think that's when I started developing these misgivings about monogamy and conventional romance and stuff. Although as a kid especially, I didn't have the vocabulary for it. There wasn't anything surrounding societally that was reinforcing these misgivings, so it's just stuff that was in the back burner of my mind for years and years and years. As a teenager, it kept being more like watching media and being a bit more critical of the portrayal of romance and stuff in media where it's like, oh, the typical love triangle - which is more of a love corner - where it's between these two seemingly compatible people, but they always give one person some fatal flaw or whatever. But it's like, “Oh, isn't there a way that adults can, I don't know, talk it out and share? Can they do that? Is that a thing adults can do?” So I remember having these kinds of thoughts, but again, not really having the formal vocabulary for it. And again, just putting it on the back burner and still basically on the monogamy train for all intents and purposes.
When I was about 18, I met who would become my first boyfriend and he was (laughs) so many, so many red flags. But he was already involved with someone, who he didn't tell me about for a while and so I think he - if I remember right (cuz this was 10 years ago now) he would drop hints, because he shared his social media with me, and there were pictures of them together on his social media, but he never said it out loud specifically. And eventually, he recommended that I read the book Sex at Dawn. And when I saw it, when I saw what the book was about I was like, “Okay. I think I'm picking up what he's putting down.”
So I was reading the book and of course, since then, there's been a lot of critiques about how much actual science there actually is in Sex at Dawn. But when I was introduced to a lot of the vocabulary like “ethical non-monogamy,” “polyamory,” and all of this stuff, it clicked. It really made sense and I was like, “Oh my God, all of these, all those misgivings, all of these things that I'd put on the back burner for so long. There are adults who do do this, and have done this in the history of humanity!”
And so, long story short, that relationship did not work out, but the non-monogamy part did stick, because it did feel very natural and I'm like, “Oh, this really works and makes sense.” And even if it might take different forms or different shapes as time passes, I don't think I could ever go back to just pure monogamy. So yeah, that’s the nutshell.
Leanne: Wait, so let me get this straight. So he didn't tell you about this other partner that he had, and then he gave you Sex at Dawn, and then after you finished reading Sex at Dawn you were like, “Yeah, I resonate with the stuff that was in this book!” and he was just like, “Surprise!” Like, is that how it went down?
Michelle: Pretty much. Pretty much.
Leanne: Oh my God!
Michelle: I know because it was - oh God, looking back - 18 years old - I had just started college and so just entering that new chapter of adulthood or whatever. You know, the life after high school and you're no longer a kid anymore, and you're becoming an adult. And so I think I was definitely too open without enough discernment. I always encourage people to be open and curious and stuff, but it's so important to develop healthy discernment and boundaries and whatnot. And for so long, with my upbringing and stuff, and going back to Asian parents and whatever, I was never really taught or shown healthy boundaries. And if anything, having healthy boundaries seemed to be sort of negative, where it's maybe disrespectful or something to put your foot down and preserve your own safety and well-being. And that's selfish or whatever.
Leanne: Yeah, you’re seen as talking back.
Michelle: Yeah, right. Exactly.
(8:34 min)
Leanne: Okay. So, you've been actively practising polyamory since you were 18, which is similar to my journey in that - well, I didn't start polyamory specifically until I was around 20, but I had been in open relationships and doing general non-monogamy since I was 16. So you've been practising all this for a little bit longer than I have. So how have reactions of the people around you changed over the years? Because on my end, as a relatively young person practising non-monogamy, a lot of people just assume that it's a phase, and that I don't know any better, and I'm just experimenting and stuff, and eventually I'll settle down when I'm older. And presumably, I will still be practising polyamory in a couple years, and I wonder at that age how people will react. And so yeah, I'm just wondering on your side, have you noticed a change as you got older?
Michelle: I think for me, I compartmentalize a lot. And especially with my early experiences with trying to talk to my family about my relationships and stuff, that did not go well. My mom wanted to kick me out and my mom was all like, “Oh, this guy's gonna make you drop out of school, and you're gonna get into drugs, and if you get pregnant, I'm not gonna be there to help you.” It was really harsh. So that in my mind was just like, “Note not to bring sensitive or very personal things up, because my mother's not going to handle it very well.” So I think I did this as a kid, just a lot of compartmentalization. So I would say that anyone who does know that I’m non-monogamous and knows a lot about my life are just people who are close to me and who I know are cool with it.
And I don't think I very actively hide that I'm non-monogamous. I just feel like in a lot of cases it just doesn't come up. And I feel I talk about this a lot: whether it's worth the emotional labour to even bring that topic up, because I don't care if you think non-monogamy is moral or immoral or whatever. I don't care if you have negative opinions about polyamory. If I think you might have that, I won't bring it up and that doesn't mean that I feel like, for me - because I know this can be different for a lot of people - I don't think I'm having to hide myself, necessarily. It's like no, I'm protecting myself from people who don't matter at the end of the day with regard to that. So I definitely feel more secure, I guess, in my identity as a non-monogamous person, and definitely have created healthier boundaries of feeling like oh, it matters if these people know, it doesn't matter if these people know or not.
Leanne: Yeah, definitely. I think different people put different amounts of value and stock into whether their loved ones accept them, or maybe not so much your loved ones, but your family of origin. And I remember when you made a post about coming out to family, there's a line in that post of yours that I have since quoted to many many many many people, because I just think it was one of those [explosion noise] moments for me. No, genuinely. And that line of yours in that post was something along the lines of, “The opinion of those who do not truly seek to understand you is vastly overrated.” And I was just like, “Oh my God! Oh my God!” Literally, I just had a moment, I was just like, “Why have I been focusing on - “ It doesn't matter. They don't matter. Again, they have never - why am I putting so much effort into making my parents understand me, when they have never reciprocated that effort in return? Why am I bending over backwards to try and appease them and make them understand something that they don't want to do?
If this was in a relationship and I was bending over backwards for someone who wasn't reciprocating the effort, the relationship would have ended a long time ago. Why am I not applying the same logic, and betraying my own boundaries for my parents? Literally, that one line was genuinely so revolutionary. I cannot overstate in words.
And so I think that people put a lot of stock in coming out to their family of origin, coming out to friends, and being scared of a potential negative reaction and that. But I think I've reframed it in my mind as: I'm speaking my truth and if people can't accept that, then it is no loss to me. I've spoken my truth, and they've spoken theirs, and that's not compatible. So anyway, I just wanted to talk about that post in particular, because it was so good. I just need to gush to you about how much that meant for me. (laughs)
Michelle: Yeah, I mean that's a huge thing. I mean with representation especially within LGBTQ+ history and whatever, being out and proud is very much - has been an - I don't know, a slogan or whatever, that is being representation, and being out there. And especially in the United States, with the AIDS crisis. Being out and proud, that was a matter of life and death to get representation and to get awareness. So that’s a huge public health crisis. And especially these days with social media and stuff, it's easier for people to come up here and, for better or worse, perform “outness”. I think that can have a lot of benefits where it's really good to see representation. I mean, we're here talking, and I think that's super important. And on the other hand, I think it becomes, unfortunately, I don't know, I think it gets co-opted, or it becomes shallow, where it's like, “Oh, that's it. You have to put your face in front of the screen and that's the big win.”
But I think at the end of the day, it can be both. Whereas on the one hand, it can be very helpful. On the other hand, it can be very overrated and I think a bit overstated in its importance to a degree, because at the end of the day the goal is to exist. The goal is to exist. (laughs) And not owing anybody anything. Just being able to exist in peace.
Leanne: Yeah, for sure. I think definitely in a lot of queer narratives where the idea of coming out is very - the theory and the stories that we see in media often does not match up to practice. Coming out is seen as this one thing and in reality, we have to come out multiple times, all the time, to various people.
So speaking of theory not matching up with practice, I wonder: on your polyamory journey you read Sex at Dawn. You familiarized yourself with non-monogamy. I know you were kind of chucked into the deep end, because your partner was just like yeah, I already have another partner. So you never really had a moment of - But then I would like to know, was there anything in particular that you thought was the case in non-monogamy that later turned out not to be? Was there anything where practice did not match up to what you learned in theory?
(16:09 min)
Michelle: Oh man, I mean I guess there's a lot. So I think going back to the boundaries thing. I think just having to completely change over time - I mean, even to this day, work on boundaries - I'm not done with that work yet. Just having to reconceptualize what it means to be an individual, as well as an individual as part of a collective, which is why I also talk about non-monogamy and politics all the time because it's all very related. But yeah, how to maintain my own autonomy and respect myself and respect others’ decisions while also being part of a cohesive whole.
Because I really thought I had to sacrifice a lot of my own comfort and well-being in order to bring greater contentment and satisfaction to the whole. I definitely had the misconception that I had to be BFFs with my metamours. That we had to hang out all the time in a triad of sorts and that I had to be really okay with everything and that any - because I was really afraid that - looking back on this, it was a lot of my boyfriend at the time putting this in my mind that I might not be polyamorous, that I might be monogamous at the end of the day. Even though he hadn't been practising non-monogamy long before we had even met.
Leanne: So it was like blind leading the blind.
Michelle: Right, exactly! Yeah, I call it that all the time because as an 18-year-old - and also he was much older, too, he was 32 at the time - and so I relinquished a lot of personal responsibility in a way. And just following his authority blindly. But yeah, there was a lot of me pushing myself outside - way beyond my comfort zone and safety zone - to prove that I was good enough for this radical new structure. That I wasn't just trying to - these days learning the term “cowboy” or “cowgirl” - I wasn't trying to cowgirl or whatever, and try to steal my partner away from non-monogamy or any of his partners. If anything, at the end of the relationship, come to find out that I was much more - I try to stay away from “natural” or “unnatural” - but I feel, much more suited in a way for a lot of non-monogamous type of structure than he was, which I still, to this day, still get a little angry about.
But yeah, there's a lot of misconceptions about - that I think are a lot of misconceptions in a lot of monogamous relationships, and a lot of mononormativity, of the martyrdom. And in order to make your partner happy, it's almost romantic to sacrifice your own mental well-being or physical resources or something. And so I think that was probably the biggest thing that was different in my head than in real life.
Leanne: Yeah, I know and I do think that there is a certain amount of coercion that some people can exert in those scenarios where they're like, “Oh, well, if you express any negative emotion, if you get jealous or insecure, maybe you're not cut out for this.” And it doesn't give you any room to feel this out and see if it fits you, and I think that mainstream polyamorous narratives tend to pathologize jealousy as this thing that you have to clamp down and eradicate and eliminate as soon as possible. And it's like well, sometimes, sure, the jealousy is caused by your personal insecurities and traumas and that kind of thing. But sometimes, it can also be caused by your partner literally not meeting your needs and the relationship being unhealthy. Obviously, if your sense of loss and your sense of scarcity is very much based in reality, obviously you're gonna feel jealous.
And I think people don't talk about this enough. Everyone just sees it as an internal issue and there's an amount of gaslighting that can occur because of that. If your jealousy is actually caused by something external but you keep telling yourself and everyone keeps telling you that it's your problem and it is internal. You have to sacrifice your boundaries and work on yourself, and no one's going to be there to support you because this is your own thing and no one can manage your feelings for you. “Your feelings are not my responsibility.” That phrase I feel gets taken way beyond its original meaning. And then that can be super harmful. That sense of self-doubt. And you constantly need to prove yourself, prove yourself as a good polyamorist - as a good practitioner of the theory or whatever. And we don't work like that. This is something as thorny as relationships, you shouldn't treat it like you're taking a seminar on something. It's not the same thing.
So I think you talking about that really brings to light that point that I feel a lot of people really need to hear, that if you're struggling early on in your journey, that's normal because we literally have a lifetime of mononormativity to dismantle. Some more than others depending on how late you started your journey or whatever. But I think that that indoctrination is real, and I think that doing something that you weren't taught to do by society or whatever is difficult, whether it's being queer or being non-monogamous. Even if being queer, obviously, that's your identity, that's your sexuality. That doesn't change. But then all the internalized homophobia that you may experience, all the shame that has been put on you - that can make actually putting your identity into practice difficult. And I think people don't talk about that enough. They're just like, “Oh, you come out and then everything's immediately easy.” Like, no, that's just not how it works.
Michelle: Yeah, sometimes it's harder. Sometimes it's harder and that's why people stay in because it’s often - not often. But yeah, sometimes it's not worth it.
(22:41 min)
Leanne: Absolutely.
So I know that you identify as solo polyamorous, and I've had a few solo polyamorous people in this series so far. And I feel it's often a very misunderstood relationship style. I said in another call that I feel like there is a certain group of polyamorous people who don't like solo polyamorists, because they feel that solo polyamorous people are trying to demean the entire concept of polyamory, having multiple commitments or whatever because they're like, “Oh, if you never live with anyone, never get married to anyone, never have kids with anyone, that's not commitment!” And it's a complete misunderstanding of what solo polyamory is and that and that kind of thing.
So I want to ask you: what does solo polyamory mean to you? And at what point in your journey did you realize that solo polyamory was the best fit for you, compared to other types of polyamory? Because there's the point where you discover non-monogamy, and then there's the point where you discover solo polyamory specifically. So what was that process like for you?
Michelle: Whenever I get asked this question, it’s like oh yeah, what does it mean? It's varied because, I mean, you've talked to people and people have different answers and it looks very different for a lot of people, and so there's - just like the rest of non-monogamy - there's no one right way, it seems. For me, when I use the term “solo polyamorous” it generally means that I'm not interested in looking to live with any partners or necessarily combine finances and whatnot, which doesn't mean that I'm against providing or receiving support from partners, which can come in a financial sense. But we're not paying a mortgage together yet.
So solo polyamory for me - this past year is my first time living alone and it's awesome. Much more expensive, unfortunately, but it's awesome. Before, I lived with roommates and stuff. But yeah, my first relationship that boyfriend was the first and only person - partner - that I've ever lived with, and I lived with him for about two or three years. And toward the end of that relationship, part of what helped facilitate the crumbling of that relationship was me realizing how much alone time and my own personal space that I need to recharge and to just feel relaxed. Because, I think, even with the people that I care about and love the most, there's always still in my head this social brain that's on, and that's watching, watching and monitoring. And I think, for me, I get exhausted a bit, and I become not my best self when it becomes a bit too exhausting to monitor and watch and all that stuff. So being alone and having my own space, very important for me to be able to show up to my relationships in the best way that I can muster.
And also, for me, I think I was doing solo polyamory before I came across the term. And so when I found it, I’m like, “Oh, that seems to fit.” So yeah, I'll pick that up. But it's not something that I'm gonna live and die by where it's like, oh, I don't know what I'm gonna want five years from now. I totally think that I’ll be open to living with partners down the road when I get older and tired-er. Down the road, I'll just know more and more the conditions that I'll need to be able to help make that a sustainable thing for all of us. Like, I'll have to have my own space and whatnot, but also it would be cool not to have to pay full rent for a place, to be able to split the costs and share resources and stuff like that. So for me, I think I discovered that I was solo polyamorous probably about five years ago, and it's been great. I've been loving it. The pandemic - it's definitely sucked because of that. Not being able to have a partner in the next room to be like, “Can I have a hug?” But still, I think me not being with partners even during COVID has been better than if I were to be in the same space with partners, because I just don't have that capacity and it would definitely get ugly.
Leanne: Yeah, for sure, yeah.
You bring up a really good point, Michelle, in that it's okay for your labels and your identity and your desires, in general, to change over time. I think that what a lot of people fall into - the trap that they fall into - is that they end up having to serve the label that they use, rather than having a certain label serve them. I had a client very recently who, after nine years of being solo polyamorous suddenly realized that she wanted a primary partner. She wanted a hierarchical polyamorous relationship. And that really unsettled her because she was like, “This has defined me for so long. Who am I? Who am I without my sense of independence and autonomy and all that? What is it in me that has changed that I suddenly want this?” And yeah, I think this is something that people grapple with if they want one thing one moment and then realize that they want something else because it feels like they've discounted all the time that they spent in that previous identity. And so I think it's important to go: your labels aren't life commitments. And then if you get to a point where the life that you're living isn't actually serving your desires, it doesn't matter - the past couple years, or whatever, was still meaningful. And they served you well at that time. It's just that they don't serve you that well anymore. So it's good to have that flexibility, and it doesn't mean that you were a fraud all this time or something like that.
Michelle: Right. Yeah, we were all babies for a long time. Are we baby frauds because we're adults now? No, it's just the natural passing of time and change and you learn more about the world and you learn more about yourself. Things change. It's so cliche, but it's so true: the only constant is change. And I feel that it’s so true for non-monogamy since people have to learn and grow, I think, a lot faster or more intensely than people who follow more monogamous or mononormative journeys. So yeah, gotta embrace change and, like, doesn't mean that we can't struggle. Struggle's definitely a part of it, and at the end of the day, as long as we live and we learn, that's all we can ask of ourselves.
(29:48 min)
Leanne: Yeah, absolutely.
So let's get to the meat of what we're talking about today, which is our experiences of being polyamorous and Asian, and how the two have influenced each other. And I think the first thing that I want to talk about is that - so you're solo polyamorous. At the moment, you have no plans to enmesh your life very deeply with someone else and go on those traditional markers of commitment, that kind of thing. So how has that gone down with your family of origin? I really want to talk about our respective experiences with Asian parents, because I understand that you've taken a very different approach to them compared to me. And so I want to showcase that diversity of experience and approach. So how has that gone down, you being polyamorous, specifically solo polyamorous? Are you very open with your family about it all and if not, then how do you handle that?
Michelle: So as I mentioned before, my mom has no chill. (laughs) The only person that basically knows everything is my closest sister. She's a few years younger than me - I'm the oldest - she's a few years younger than me, but she knows everything and she's cool with it and stuff. And it's very funny because she doesn't really have an Instagram, but she created an Instagram to look at my stuff and she was reading stuff where I would mention her. Because I say this a lot, where it's like, yeah, the only person who knows is my sister, and she commented in all caps multiple times, “That’s me! I’m the chosen one!” And I’m like, “Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are.”
But for me, it is not important for the rest of my family to know. I'm okay with my sister knowing because we are very connected and, I mean, to this day, I don't think anyone has spent more time very close around me than my sister. And I think the same is vice versa because we're only two to three years apart so we were around each other all the time. And also our values are aligned enough where I know it's safe, and I know she understands or really tries to understand, and it's not this shallow veneer of tolerance.
With my mom, at this point, it's like, what is she gonna do? Kick me out of the house? No. Coming off from her insurance? No, I'm too old for that. There aren't things that would deeply impact how I'm able to survive in life. So I know that, at this point, that if I were to tell her, she would try to be accepting to the extent that she can, but there would there be so much misunderstanding, and there would be so many preconceived notions, because I also know that she's a very jealous woman and very monogamous, and when I just think of that it makes me tired. I don't want to do that emotional labour. I don't think it would bring us closer together. I don't think it would enrich our relationship suddenly to give her that knowledge and that insight into my personal life. And I don't feel I'm missing something because I don't tell her.
I know this is very different for a lot of people, for a lot of families. I think it's also because I do have a bit more of a distant relationship with my mother, so it isn't as important to me. But yeah, my Instagram is public and stuff like that, so if - not that she's active on Instagram really - if she was ever to come across it or whatever, then it'd be up to her to ask me. If she wants to know, she'll ask me. And knowing her, even if she were to find out, she probably wouldn't ask me, or it would take her a long long long time to even muster up wanting to ask me. Because we largely have a “don't ask, don't tell” thing with regard to personal life these days, and that might change. I don't know, that might change in the future and I'm open to that changing. I'm open to having the conversation with them down the road, but I am in no rush to just force that conversation early on.
Leanne: Did your parents ever do that thing stereotypical Asian parents do where they're like, you need to get married by this time and have a nice Chinese husband who is a doctor or a lawyer, and then have two and a half kids by this age, and I get to have grandchildren to bounce on my knee and that kind of thing? Did your parents ever try and enforce these expectations on you? Because I imagine that would conflict a lot with the solo polyamory.
Michelle: Right, yeah. It’s interesting because, as I said before, my parents are divorced and my dad lives in a separate state so I don't see him too often, but they are very different. My mom definitely chose more of the assimilationist route, American assimilationist route, and she took more of the route of just more of, I think, that rugged individualist route. And I think when she raised my sister and I - even though, it's that weird thing, even though she thought boundaries around her or something were disrespectful, she also wanted us to, in her own way - she would not call herself a feminist - but she wanted us to be independent, never depend on a partner for money or whatever. Never blah blah blah, and this, I think, was very much informed with how her divorce and her relationship with my dad and stuff that. And just wanting us to be independent.
And also, not to air out my mom's dirty laundry too much, but she definitely has a thing of a denial of getting older. And I think if any of her children - I'm the oldest, so I would be the first one, but I’ve chosen to be child-free. And so, having grandchildren would make her face that she's getting older, and she even said this - I don't even think I brought it up. Someone else brought it up and she was like, “Oh nope, I don't need grandchildren. I'm still young. I'm still whatever.” So on that front, I know that she's never gonna bother me about grandkids, which is funny.
But my dad loves children. Where he lives, that's where his family lives, so he's much more the big Asian family style. All holidays, you have dozens of people together and stuff like that, and very intertwined in everyone's business, and he loves children. And he has told me, “So…when am I gonna have grandchildren?” and that kind of thing. But he’s much less harsh and he definitely, I think, respects my autonomy a lot more and so he mostly teases. Like, joking, but not joking, about the grandkids. But with my dad also it's like, I know he would be super accepting and stuff. But again it's like, do I want to pull out the polyamory dictionary?
Leanne: Do you want to bother? Yeah.
Michelle: Do I want to explain the polycule map and how it works? Nah, I don't want to do that. So in my circumstances, the relationship escalator, that expectation, I guess, is not very strongly - I think, in a way, they've lost a lot of hope. So it's not as big an issue for me.
Leanne: Okay, fair enough. Yeah, my parents were very much - they had certain expectations of me when I moved to the UK when I was 16. They were just like, “Yeah, we want you to find a nice Chinese boy who's gonna be very very smart and very very successful and then you get married young and have kids,” and all that kind of thing. And then I think I just gradually eroded their expectations over time as I became more and more of a disappointment. And (laughs) I don't mean this to be self-deprecating. I think I'm just stating it as fact. It's not like I'm secretly crying over it. It's fine. I know that the life that I live - there was no universe where I wasn't gonna be not a disappointment to my parents. (laughs)
But I think even now, my mom and I have done a lot of work in therapy actually over the last couple months to get to where we are with her accepting me being polyamorous. And even at this point, it's kind of like, she accepts it but she doesn't agree. She's just like, “I accept that this is your life to live and I don't have any control over your choices, but ultimately I do think that a relationship should be between a man and a woman, and just a man and a woman.” And so it's a tough place to be in, but then at some point, you have to make the call of well, is this a dealbreaker, or am I just gonna have to learn to live with it?
Because there's the added dimension that me and my mom don't live in the same country. I'm literally (laughs) on another continent so it's like, okay, she doesn't agree with my lifestyle or whatever the fuck. Does that have a massive effect on my life in the grand scheme of things? Not really. Do I need to bother doing the whole cutting her off thing when I barely speak to her anyway? Not really. So at some point, I was just like, I don't care enough to make this a thing. And -
Your cat is so distracting. He's so nice. It’s a beautiful cat, oh my God.
Michelle: I know, yeah. He's wanting attention so bad.
Leanne: I love them. Just have a mind of their own.
So my parents, they - my dad doesn't really care that much. He's more like, “As long as you're happy then it doesn't matter.” And my dad's taken on a very - my dad's a very traditional dad, in that he provides financially for the family and then that's his role. And so growing up, he wasn't around that much because he was always on business trips and working a lot, and he's done phenomenally in providing for our family. I come from - we're very new money, but my dad's done really really well in his career. We've never had to want for anything and I have a lot of privilege in that sense. But then the trade-off is that he's very, very emotionally reticent, and we don't have that much of a close relationship. And so even now he's just like, “Whatever issues that you have, if it can be fixed with money, just call me. And as long as you're happy then you can do whatever.” Whereas my mom is just like, “No, we need to have expectations of her! We can't just let this all go!” And so there's a bit of conflict there and it's funny to watch it play out, if I'll be honest.
But I think at this point my parents are like yeah, I guess she lives her own life. I think it was more difficult when I was financially dependent on my parents when I was in school and I was in an open relationship. My mom was like, “You don't know what you want,” etc, etc. Whereas now, this year, I actually properly became financially independent through running this blog. And so that was a big step for me. That was a big step in that I could really own my choices and not have to try and appease my parents as much or that kind of thing. So that has been a move, for sure.
Michelle: Yeah, that's so important. Right, yes. That makes a world of difference.
Leanne: Yeah, definitely because I don't have to live under threat of actually having my sense of financial security or home security threatened if my parents don't accept me. It's still, obviously - there's a part of me that still wishes that I could just be very open with them and that kind of thing, but it doesn't matter as much to me anymore as it once did. And I think also the work that we did in therapy helped me establish better boundaries around that front, like you said. Because I don't know if you relate to this, Michelle, but I do feel that Asian parents, they view their children as an extension of themselves or rather a representation of themselves. “You have to do the work to make us proud. We worked so hard. We put so much effort into your education, your life etc. so that you could fulfill all these dreams that we couldn't fulfill.” And so, there isn't so much of that separation, because they see you as the vehicle through which their dreams are fulfilled. I don't know if you relate to this at all, but that's certainly my experience of my relationship with my parents, up until we did the work in therapy anyway. But yeah, what do you think?
(43:10 min)
Michelle: Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. There was also a term that I only learned this past year, like, emotional incest, as well. Especially with my mom being a single mom for so long and me being the oldest. Of course, she did the best that she could to try to keep us running as a family, keep a roof over our heads and things like that, but she also was a person who didn't have a whole lot of friends and a whole lot of a support network outside of her mom, my grandparents. So I think there's a lot of stuff that leaked into turning me into a sort of little therapist in a way. And as a kid, it almost felt an honour like, “Oh yeah, I'm mature.” It’s almost like I'm a little adult, too. But looking back it's like, no. What that required was a lot of putting aside my own - (laughs) oh, we're seeing a pattern here! - putting aside my own needs for someone else, for my mom. Because my mom's working so hard, holy shit.
When I think about it - also these days too where it's like, wow, having two kids at my age? Having two cats is enough for me. (laughs) But yeah, the emotional boundaries, or lack of emotional boundaries, and also that interesting thing of the individualism versus collectivism mindset, and cultural background.
Leanne: For sure. Shame and all that.
Michelle: Yes, yeah, where on the one hand, yes, there's one thing about community, and you represent our community in a way, and our family, and so everything that you do comes back to us and it's all related, and it impacts the family.
Leanne: Yes. Wow. Yes.
Michelle: But then it's a spectrum, right, and this other thing of well, yes, yeah, I love my family, and I know that certain things that I do do impact them and whatnot, and there's a sort of give and take. But at the same time, it does become this unhealthy, “We don't acknowledge your autonomy really at all.” It has to be what - like with my mom, “It's what I want,” and “Mother knows best” kind of thing and so you have to do that. “If you don't do it, that means it reflects poorly on me as a mother.”
Leanne: Yes, oh my God.
Michelle: Where it’s like if you're a bad child then people will think that - they will look at me and be like, “That was a bad mother.”
Leanne: My mom said the same thing a lot. Yeah, oh my God. Literally the same experience. My mom, when I came out as bi and polyamorous, my mom didn't understand that sexuality isn't a choice. My mom was very much like, “What are other people gonna think of me? They're gonna think I raised you badly for you to turn out this way.” And in particular, the really thorny thing was that I came out as bi, specifically, rather than as a lesbian. And honestly, the really funny thing is that I think my mom would have had an easier time if I was a lesbian because -
So, my cousin is a lesbian. My cousin has a girlfriend, a very very long-term girlfriend. They're very much in love, and I'm pretty sure if they were a heterosexual couple, they would be the darling of the family, because they're so cute together, and it's ridiculous. But she's a lesbian and my aunt and uncle, so her parents, have a really really really difficult time accepting that. Because my uncle is very much, very violently homophobic. He’s like, “If I see two men being affectionate to each other in the street, I'll beat them up.” And so living in that kind of environment is not great. But my mom has always been very accepting of my cousin. My mom was always very much like, “She didn't choose who she is. She can't help that she's into women, and they've been in a relationship for so long. It’s a shame that they can't get married in Hong Kong,” where we're from.
So that actually gave me the security to come out as bisexual to her because I was like, “Oh, she's safe, okay. I can do this.” But then I came out as bi, and my mom had a completely different reaction because my mom was like, “Okay, well, you're into guys and you're into girls. So why won't you do the thing that is best for the family, best for the collective, and just be straight?” Because she's like - different from my cousin. Because my cousin doesn't have a choice. Even if she wanted to be into men, she couldn't, whereas I can.
So basically my mom turned my bisexuality into this thing where if I expressed any attraction to a woman, it was a betrayal to the family, it brought shame on the family, and it was an act of rebellion that I was attracted to women. Whereas if I was attracted to men, then I'd be respecting my family and their values, and giving them face to society at large and that kind of thing.
And the whole thing about me being a representation of them. When I went to the UK, my mom was like, “People are not going to see you as Leanne, the individual. They're going to see you as Leanne, the Chinese girl from Hong Kong, and so you have to perform to the best of - you have to excel in class, you have to be the model student. person. girlfriend, whatever, so then people will have a good impression of China.” Which is a lot of responsibility to put on a 16-year-old. Like, “I am an ambassador of my country!” Right?
And so then, and all of that stuff, right. So genuinely I feel like my mom would have had an easier time if I'd just been a lesbian, because my mom wouldn't be agonizing over whether I’d make the good or the bad choice.
Michelle: Right. The choice part, where it's like, “Oh, so your sexuality means you can choose whether to have the good sexuality or bad sexuality. Why would you choose the bad sexuality?” Yeah. Oh my God. (laughs)
(49:16 min)
Leanne: That’s fucked, right? So fucked. (laughs)
So I also wanted to ask you as well about how being Asian has impacted your dating life. And I asked you to collate some questions from your followers and I know that someone asked about Asian parents, so we've talked about that. And someone else asked about racial fetishization and exoticization in polyamory, and how that has manifested in your life. Are there any personal anecdotes you can share on that front, any words of wisdom that you have for identifying people who are going to do that and that kind of thing?
Michelle: Yeah, I mean it's definitely been a journey of recognizing fetishization because definitely - I think as a teenager I was cognizant of it a little bit, but I was one of those people who would joke about being Asian in front of white friends. I was the kind of person who was okay with my nickname being Soy Sauce and stuff because it was funny or whatever, and looking back, it's super super cringe. Yeah, definitely when I was younger, more playing into that palatability aspect of it.
Leanne: So you allowed yourself to be the butt of the joke so you could appease your white friends.
Michelle: Right, and I definitely saw that early on when I started to branch out and date and whatever. Not putting up with people who on OKCupid would be like, “Oh I like ch*nky women.” No, that's definitely a no. But being less aware of what ‘yellow fever’ was when I was younger - because yeah, with my first boyfriend, he definitely had that fetish, and it was something that took me a while to recognize, to even learn what that was. And just seeing the ways in which I'm more of this object to be projected on to, to have fantasies projected onto and referenced before, the demure, submissive, blah blah blah blah blah, all of those terrible stereotypes and assumptions.
10 years later from when I started dating and being non-monogamous, it's definitely - I feel it's more of a program that is constantly running, but it isn't something that takes up a lot of space at the forefront all the time, if that makes sense, where it's something that's always watching. Where it's on dating profiles or whatever, with the yellow, orange, and red flags, where it's like, red flags are the people who straight-up, first message is “I love Asian girls,” or “I've always wanted to be with a Chinese girl,” or all of those kind of things. But sadly, personally, if I see if someone's into anime, that's a yellow flag. Sadly. Because there's a lot of people who - they self-identify as a weeb, and they want their kawaii girlfriend. (laughs)
Leanne: Oh God, I have definitely run into that, yeah.
Michelle: They want their anime wife. Yeah, so not a red flag, yellow flag.
Leanne: Yeah, they want a waifu.
Michelle: Right, exactly, waifu. It's not even the right Asian, dude. (laughs) So I feel like, unfortunately, that's a program that runs constantly at the back of my mind that looks out for yellow flags and is like watching, always watching. And at this point, being like, trust the gut feeling. Gut feeling. Even if you can't rationalize it to yourself completely, trust the gut feeling, because it's been right more often than wrong.
So I think these days I've become better at discerning and seeing more and more of the people to avoid, and the people who are probably safe, and do a little bit more vetting and talking about what their politics are and what their life views are and stuff like that, to determine the safety factor.
Leanne: Yeah, for sure.
There's this thing that I find with dating people who - it's kind of a catch-22. Like you said, the anime thing. It shouldn't be a yellow flag that someone is into anime, but sadly it has become one. And for me, how that shows up for me is whether or not someone has dated Asians in the past. And it’s this catch-22, because if I'm the first Asian person that someone has ever dated, then I'm like, wait, are they dating me because I'm something different? They want to try something new and exotic? Or is it just, I happen to be Asian? And then if they have dated Asian people in the past, then I'm like, oh fuck, am I just one of a long string of Asian people who they're just objectifying?
Michelle: Part of the collection, yeah.
Leanne: Yeah, exactly. Am I only being added to the collection? And it’s so fucked, because I wish I could just exist as a person and then not have to worry about whether someone's dating me for me, or if they're dating me because I'm Asian specifically.
And my personal take on the whole fetishization thing is I have no issue with people finding me attractive because I'm Asian. Because being Asian comes with certain features and whatever, and if someone's into that stuff, cool. I used to sleep with a guy who was very into very petite women specifically, and petiteness often goes with Asianness - not all the time, but a lot of the time - and so that lined up. It wasn't a weird thing. But then where I draw the line is where someone starts assuming things about me on the basis of my Asianness. Assuming that I'll be submissive, or assuming that I'll be into anime, or assuming that I like spicy food. (laughs)
Michelle: (laughs) Oh, are you also an Asian that doesn't handle spicy food? (laughs)
Leanne: I can handle some levels of spice, but then yeah, definitely not as much as I should, especially considering that I literally grew up in Asia.
Michelle: My grandma is from Sichuan and so she loves spicy. She has to make her own hot sauce.
Leanne: Oh yeah, Sichuan spice is like a hot - it's a different level. (laughs)
Michelle: I can handle some spice, but her and my mom, they love burning all the taste buds off of their tongue, and I'm just like, I'm sorry I can't, and they laugh at me all the time. (laughs)
Leanne: Yeah, so no issue people finding me attractive because I'm Asian, but not assuming extra character traits or whatever on that basis. So that's where I draw it - and I've definitely run into people who -
I once dated a guy who I thought was fine, but then he started dating this other girl who was also Chinese. And then even though me and that other Chinese girl looked nothing alike - she was tall and very slender, and her body was covered in tattoos, and she had long hair. And I had short hair, I'm more average build, and I don't have piercings or tattoos or anything like that. And he kept calling us the wrong name in bed. He kept calling me by her name, -
Michelle: Oh my God.
Leanne: - kept calling her by my name, and it just got to this point where I was just like, what the fuck is going on? You've been seeing both of us for months now. How are you still getting this wrong? And I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but it's just, little microaggressions like that as well, I was just like, oh fuck.
And in sex-positive spaces, I think - fortunately I haven't run into people fetishizing me or kind of wanting to do race play with me or stuff like that in orgies and that kind of thing. Yeah, I think I've been very lucky, because I know definitely some other BIPOC people I know, they've definitely gone to an orgy, and immediately someone's just propositioned them with a race play thing. And that's obviously fucked because - I mean, there are some BIPOC people who are into that, but most of the time, no. And it's just very much what I said about projecting certain things on someone based on their race. It's going up to them going like, “Hey, do you want to, I don’t know, (snorts) role play the Vietnam War or something.
(Hysterical laughter)
Michelle: I mean, you know that's out there! You know that's out there.
Yeah, you bring up the thing about fetishization that is the most harmful. Where it's like, not seeing the person as a whole person, but seeing you almost like this blank slate of just projections and assumptions. And that ultimately ends up denying our needs and our wants and boundaries and, ugh, yeah, that becomes a safety issue.
Leanne: Yeah.
Well, that's all the time that we have for today, unfortunately, as much as I want to talk to you about all this because genuinely there's so much to cover. Yeah so much, so much. But I will be doing a talk with Jessica Lin, who runs @jessbeyondthebody on navigating race within polyamory, so for those of you who are interested in attending that, it's happening on the 22nd of January. Links are in my bio, so go check that out. And Michelle, where can people find you on social media?
Michelle: Yeah, I largely just live on Instagram. I'm not a multi-platform queen like Leanne. Instagram: @polyamorouswhileasian, that's where people can reach me. I also update my website polyamorouswhileasian.com. Yeah.
Leanne: All right, thank you so much for joining me, Michelle, and it's been so great speaking to you again. And yeah, everyone, follow her. Thank you so much.
Michelle: Thank you! (laughs)
Leanne: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Happy Polydays series. If you’d like to support my work, consider becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com/polyphiliablog. You can also follow me at @polyphiliablog on Instagram, Tiktok, Facebook, and Twitter, buy my polyamory merch at polyphiliashop.redbubble.com, or book a peer support session with me on my website polyphilia.blog. Until next time!
